English
FrançaisHi everyone,
You may have received a communication from a receiver/administrator regarding Pierre et Vacances Centre parcs group.
Pierre et Vacances have entered a negotiation procedure forced upon you owners with the Commercial court support in order to negotiate the payments of the rental income due to the Covid. Any court cases against Pierre et Vacances will now be delayed until further notice and the Commercial court decides.
This situation is a real joke and scandalous as they don't seem to care at all about the owners/ lessors and their own charges to the banks which of course process actions against owners. Of course the French owners have the possibilities to demand income tax relief etc..., but overseas owners have been refused everything by banks and insurances.
Now this conciliator is suggesting for owners to contact a legal support which is probably going to be costly even if owners regroup under an association etc... My first suggestion here is for you to contact the association of owners you are already in contact with and then request information of the next steps but I will suggest to be extremely careful and to stay on top of this but in same time put pressure on the association for answers in both languages because in this procedure there are strong chances that you are not going to receive translations or explanations.
I am not sure on how this is going to develop but previous and recent experience shows the conciliator getting his/her way and conflicts are avoided which obviously is not going to work on owners favour.
Of course you have to think of the situation about the refurbishment which will probably kicked aside but still demanded for owners to pay. Knowing owners were planning on getting the rent to finance the refurbishment, many will be left unable to pay but the association or representative will probably not help on this point or not include this in the negotiation so don’t forget to push on this.
Regards,
Eddy
The Vultures are already organised to try and get as much funds as possible on this procedure. Please note association of owners can very well represent owners and regroup together.
The conciliator is asking to have only few representatives as possible as he cannot negotiate directly with each owners.
Thanks Eddy, I received notification today. I must get on it! Susan.
Hello. Thank you for allowing me to join.
I own a property managed by p&v. I've not received rent for a while. I got an email from a Frederic Meriot suggesting that I join his group who are pursuing p&v for the rent owed. He has recommended that I contact a lawyer, Bruno Traesch, and join in the class action. My question is this. If p&v are in administration, are they absolved of any debts? Is this worth pursuing or is it throwing good money after bad?
also. what is the position with the banks in terms of rent not being received? Are they sympathetic to mortgage payments or do we simply have to swallow the losses and continue to pay regardless?
any advice is gratefully received and I thank you in advance
Ian
Iain,
Based on what I have heard, court cases against P&V might still stand for the past rent but the conciliation process has put everything on hold and few solicitors say the actions would be cancelled.
For new actions against P&V while the conciliation already started I believe they will not be considered. Conciliation being the first step of a receivership I am not certain that you will be allowed to take legal actions against P&V at this stage.
For the mortgages, Bank will usually ignore that you are not receiving the rent as they have lended funds to you based on your personal income and the rent was not calculated in. So for them, you should be able to pay the mortgage repayments and so rarelly give a break to owners.
Regards
Eddy
Hi I'm considering buying a P&V property in France. Is this a good idea considering the current conciliation process? If I bought the property should I pay off the leaseback or just hang onto it until it runs out. I'm planning on using it as a holiday let, we would stay there only occasionally. What happens if P & V sell the resort or goes bankrupt. Thanks.
Lynda,
There is a lot more into this. You have to be very careful on this. Many owners will tell you.
It is all depending on what you really want to do. Using, renting, etc... Commercial lease have a lot of restrictions and problems. Yes it could look simple and easy but it is not always and it could be only if you look at getting some rental incomes.
You need to look into the details and what you really want to do, don't jump in this without knowing every single aspect of it.
Regards,
Eddy
Thanks for replying Eddy. I'm initially looking at buying it to rent out- so for rental income and for myself or my family to use it once or twice a year. I would plan to stay there for longer periods once I retire in about 9 years time. Linda
Hi, the mis-judgement you and we all made re leaseback is your comment "just hang onto it until it runs out"
In France a commercial-lease "never" ends until you evict the tenant. You have a windows of oppertunity to evict your tenant at the "end" of the lease but lease automatically renews if you do not evict.
If you go though the formal legal Eviction (conge) at end of lease term, the "Eviction" triggers Eviction-Indemnity or compensation which is decided by the tenant. If you do not agree on amount it is usually set by a judge at 3 years of the rental-turnover the tenant was earning on your apartment.
The initial num of "free weeks" you sign up to in lease for your private use is never liklly to be re-negotiated or changed. Other things to watch for is refurbs of you apartment being done by tenant and charged back to you and sometimes apartment maintenance being charged to co-owners if the tenant control the co-owners syndic.
I dont know full circumstance so possible yield is very good but you have to factor in your ability and cost to exit lease and fact that tenant are very large companies who are difficult to deal with.
Thanks for your reply 'Macdara'
The property is Residence Le Green Beach (Omaha beach, Calvados Region , Normandy) if anyone knows it?
This is the information the UK based French agent has given me, she is a former lawyer:
Again it is possible to stop the leaseback contract with 3 months notice in September 2021 otherwise running until September 2027. The best for you is to get out of the leaseback contract and rent it while not in use. When stopping the leaseback contract, there is VAT to repay -3943 euros unless you rent with 3 out of the 4 hotel services required by the tax offices so you need to use a conciergerie. I can give you more details. In 2024 there will be no VAT to repay. When out of the leaseback contract the yearly charges are: - the building charges: G11 around 2256 euros per year and N05 around 2287 euros- the taxe foncière: around 357 euros- the taxe d'habitation: around the same- Bills: electricity, internet, accountant... The purchase process takes around 3 months but the contract cannot be stopped until end September.
"Again it is possible to stop the leaseback contract with 3 months notice in September 2021 otherwise running until September 2027."
Above is the Eviction process. You have to issue a "conge" (Eviction-notice) in September 2021 or lease automatically renews for another full term until 2027. Same thing applies if you want to exit in 2027 so could extend to 2033
Tenant has right to Eviction-Idemnity as you are ending their ability to earn rental income from your apartment after 2021. They will usually come up with some huge amount which you will not agree with so often down to judge who normally imposes Indemnity = 3 years apartment rental income.
So the agent is correct in that you have the legal right to stop and exit lease in 2021 but that triggers your tenant's right to compensation. There may well be some clause setting Eviction-Idenmity to zero in your lease (check) but even then tenant can fight that as law still gives them rights to compensation. If the income you are receiving covers any compensation you need to pay to exit then it may be an ok proposition but you would need to be earning very large rent to compensation tenant for 3 years full rental income.
Enter "Indemnity" iinto forum search to read associated posts.
Why not just offer to sign 1 year leases and you renew each year? Unlikely they take up that offer as then tenant looses the Eviction-Idemnity control thy hold over leasees.
The agent though is stuck as apartment can only be sold "with lease" so no prospect of tenant ever cancelling present lease.
The agent is also correct in that in leaseback the tenant pays your maintenace but you pay it if outside leaseback. I've been in both scenarios and much preferable to be in full control of my apartment and have the right to sell freehold at any stage. Are there any apartments in the complex which are rented out provately by owners? If there are it would be worth talking to them. However I would be very surprised if you have the option to buy "without lease".
Regards
We are unhappy that we still have to pay the mortgage to the bank and Pierre et Vacances are exempt from paying us. Regarding a non-payment and the fact that they are encountering difficulties, the courts should give the owners the possibility of terminating our contract with Pierre et Vacances, with a maximum compensation of 100 euros as has been done with other management leaseback companies in the past. An amount will have to be paid as this is encapsulated within French commercial law which means you will never come out of the lease unless an agreed payment is made.
Hi there,
I'm wondering if there is any advice out there for how to address the situation with unpaid rents from P&V. I've received some communications from them but I'm unclear as to how to proceed. Any help would be appreciated.
Thank you.
Tom
Hi All, I wonder if anyone received the correspondence "New optional proposal for individual lessors supported by key lessor representatives" and if anyone has any thoughts on this? I also signed a Mandate with SCP GOBERT & ASSOCIATES in May and haven't heard anything from them since. Has anyone else experienced this? Thanks in advance, Susan.