We currently use In Extenso, and have done since 2011, but now we would like to move to a company that speaks good English. Does anyone have any recommendations please?
Can someone provide even a rough cost of any of these services? Note this is in your interest as it relates to the new automated online tax tool which will soon be added to this site.
We have already estimated a rough cost which we indicated in the last newsletter – 70 EUR. We are trying to keep the cost as low as possible but you have to realise that the tool has been developed with a French accountant who will stand over the tool and whose details will be shown with the tool. Also since the start of this year there is a legal requirement to send the tax return by EDI to the French tax office and this is another cost which we include in the fee.
We already know generally what French accountants charge (300 – 400 EUR per return) and we know that even online services charge a high fee (e.g. French tax online charge 299 EUR). But this site has always been about open discussion - it’s focus being to simplify leaseback ownership and hopefully reduce running costs and frankly all I want is objective discussion! And I would simply like to know why people use French accountants or why they choose a particular online service. Our tool is not yet complete but I would like the opportunity of adding functionality which would be of benefit.
I understand the need to use an accountant when your financial situation is “non standard”, but for the vast majority of leaseback owners it is straightforward; you receive rent and pay a number of fees, and each year you provide the same information to your accountant. The tool is designed for this “vast majority”. It is in your language and hopefully designed so it is easy to use and to understand. Sceptical users will be able to test the tool by running the tool for a previous year.
So I appreciate all feedback positive and negative.
Have used Magnin Gegors and CLV. Both in €300-€360 range.
Only reason I am not using €70 frenchleaseback online accounts is that I am out of leaseback so collecting and paying TVA so need to do CA12 TVA return.
Accountants use much the same online tools anyway to produce accounts so once you are clued into what figures you provide to accountant each year, you could just fill same figures on online version and save 200-300. Regards F
Fintan - did your lease end and do you have a local manager now looking after your property? If so (like me) you can still have the leaseback (LMNP) activity so long as your local manager provides at least 3 of the leaseback services (e.g. keyholding, laundry, cleaning). You are also correct about doing the tax return. If you spend some time at it and you are reasonably mathematical you should be able to do it yourself (one of the reasons it can be automated) but then because the law has changed in 2015 you still have to send it by EDI to the french tax office - you cannot post it any more.
I would like to know who will be the accountant /company who will deal with our tax returns and if they will help us in case of the taxman needs some expalanations about what was filled...I had quiet a few problems with them in the past :)
To answer both questions. The online tool is not complete yet but you can submit your tax return online until the 2nd May. We cannot make it live until the accountant says it is perfect. I will not yet say who the accountant is because the accountancy partner has actually changed twice since we started developing more than 1 year ago. The previous accountant could not accept the much lower cost and the current accountant still has to agree to that. And the business agreement is clear, the accountant will answer questions about tax returns until all issues are resolved. Even if the tool appears to be working perfectly I am expecting "teething" problems and issues we had not considered. But we intend increasingly to add to an online help and if program modifications are necessary they will be made immediately (on the same day).
Regarding a new mgt company, you just have to find a local company with a french SIRET whose main business it is to manage properties and you have to ensure that you provide at least 3 of the leaseback services. The property can remain a leaseback so long as at least 70% of the properties are managed by the same company. And I think this latter law is a bit grey too.
They're efficient and fine to deal with. However, while they communicate in English, they're French and it's not so easy. I don't really have a clue what they do. But my circumstances are straightfoward so it can't be that difficult. But the form is incomprehensible...
I'd be interested in an online tool especially, if it was structured so that there was a phone support option.
An update on the tool development. It is possible that it will be ready before the final tax return submission date (start of May), but I cannot say for definite. It has proved more complicated to develop than I had initially estimated and particularly because it will be a "one-stop-shop" i.e. it will generate the 2031, all the 2033 forms, the 2042, the 2042-C-PRO and if people are still paying VAT, the 3517-S and the 3562 (if they are entitled to a VAT rebate). It will also calculate the 2065 for people who have setup a french company.
All these form names may seem a bit daunting but the attraction of it is you will enter data into a simple user interface which will generate these forms depending on your entered criteria, so you will not need to understand any of them. In any case, it will be available soon, and if yet again you have had to use an accountant, then at least you will be able to test the tool by using the copy of the return the accountant gives to you.
But as I have said more than once before, it cannot be made live until it is perfect.
Good luck with that Seamus. There are many French 'professionals' making lots of money out of leaseback. The fees accountants charge for doing basic accounts is a ripoff and this tool (when it goes live) will save some expense for the beleagured leaseback owner.
Tax return is now live! If anyone is interested... There is a "Test it" option on it, so I would be really keen to get some feedback on what people think. Note there will be a proper feedback option added in the next couple of weeks.
English
Français
My accountant is Irish, so he speaks English quiet well. Immediate and highly efficient service but perhaps pricey. I can send you P.M. if you wish.
What do Extenso and C'est la Vie charge?
Seamus
We used french tax on line and they are very good and helpfull.
Can someone provide even a rough cost of any of these services? Note this is in your interest as it relates to the new automated online tax tool which will soon be added to this site.
Thanks
Seamus
Why are you asking Seamus ?????
You should be able to provide us a cost for your service !
This shouldn't be over 20/30€ for what you offer really.
Why do you really want to know how much these company charge?
Will this influence the cost for your service....I guess so...
It seems to be like this forum is only for you TO MAKE BUISNESS now...It's a bit sad really...
Can't you just help people without thinking about your own profit??
As far as I'm concerned I will stick with my accountant In Extenso...At least I'm sure he's dealing properly with all my accounts....
I will invite all of you in this forum to do the same !
That is a very unfair comment
Seamus has provided a forum for us to discuss / ask questions , a reference point an area to seek help and maybe to express our frustration.
Whatever profit he makes is minimum,
Your comments are not neccessary.
Thanks you Seamus, keep up the good work
We have already estimated a rough cost which we indicated in the last newsletter – 70 EUR. We are trying to keep the cost as low as possible but you have to realise that the tool has been developed with a French accountant who will stand over the tool and whose details will be shown with the tool. Also since the start of this year there is a legal requirement to send the tax return by EDI to the French tax office and this is another cost which we include in the fee.
We already know generally what French accountants charge (300 – 400 EUR per return) and we know that even online services charge a high fee (e.g. French tax online charge 299 EUR). But this site has always been about open discussion - it’s focus being to simplify leaseback ownership and hopefully reduce running costs and frankly all I want is objective discussion! And I would simply like to know why people use French accountants or why they choose a particular online service. Our tool is not yet complete but I would like the opportunity of adding functionality which would be of benefit.
I understand the need to use an accountant when your financial situation is “non standard”, but for the vast majority of leaseback owners it is straightforward; you receive rent and pay a number of fees, and each year you provide the same information to your accountant. The tool is designed for this “vast majority”. It is in your language and hopefully designed so it is easy to use and to understand. Sceptical users will be able to test the tool by running the tool for a previous year.
So I appreciate all feedback positive and negative.
Seamus, we use Extenso and pay €300 per year
To be fair I've been using this site since it was set up...must be close to ten years now and there has never been a "hard sell" of any sort
I use these guys
SAS MGFP - Fiscalité des Particuliers
GROUPE MAGNIN GECORS
100, rue Louis Pasteur
Carrefour de la Trousse
73490 LA RAVOIRE
Christell Challenard there is our contact. We currently pay around €360 per year
We use a company called Expertim Fiduciare ( for the past seven years ) and they charge a total of Euro 192.00 ( inclusive of TVA ) .
Our contact there speaks good English also and I have found them to be very helpful.
I'd also like to state that I've found the forum very helpful Seamus and would like to compliment you with regard to same ...
Mike Ryan
Have used Magnin Gegors and CLV. Both in €300-€360 range.
Only reason I am not using €70 frenchleaseback online accounts is that I am out of leaseback so collecting and paying TVA so need to do CA12 TVA return.
Accountants use much the same online tools anyway to produce accounts so once you are clued into what figures you provide to accountant each year, you could just fill same figures on online version and save 200-300. Regards F
wwe use clv ( c'est la vie) and find them excellent having change from Efidia some years back. The charge is approx 300.
be great to have an online tool to bring this cost down so thank you seamus for this site
/Martina
Fintan - did your lease end and do you have a local manager now looking after your property? If so (like me) you can still have the leaseback (LMNP) activity so long as your local manager provides at least 3 of the leaseback services (e.g. keyholding, laundry, cleaning). You are also correct about doing the tax return. If you spend some time at it and you are reasonably mathematical you should be able to do it yourself (one of the reasons it can be automated) but then because the law has changed in 2015 you still have to send it by EDI to the french tax office - you cannot post it any more.
Hi
I use Sr conceal no problem with them and the cost is roughly 200 euros a year
Thanks
Hi Seamus,
Just wondering when the online tax facility will be ready - its that time of year again!
Also, I'd be very interested to know how you went about getting a local manager
for your leaseback, and whether it's necessary to continue to rent the property
as a leaseback in an apartment block where all the apartments are leaseback
already, under one management company. Just wondering how the whole thing works
and would appreciate some advice.
There must surely be some light at the
end of this tunnel ;D
Thanks,
Gillian
Hi Seamus,
I would like to know who will be the accountant /company who will deal with our tax returns and if they will help us in case of the taxman needs some expalanations about what was filled...I had quiet a few problems with them in the past :)
Thanks.
To answer both questions. The online tool is not complete yet but you can submit your tax return online until the 2nd May. We cannot make it live until the accountant says it is perfect. I will not yet say who the accountant is because the accountancy partner has actually changed twice since we started developing more than 1 year ago. The previous accountant could not accept the much lower cost and the current accountant still has to agree to that. And the business agreement is clear, the accountant will answer questions about tax returns until all issues are resolved. Even if the tool appears to be working perfectly I am expecting "teething" problems and issues we had not considered. But we intend increasingly to add to an online help and if program modifications are necessary they will be made immediately (on the same day).
Regarding a new mgt company, you just have to find a local company with a french SIRET whose main business it is to manage properties and you have to ensure that you provide at least 3 of the leaseback services. The property can remain a leaseback so long as at least 70% of the properties are managed by the same company. And I think this latter law is a bit grey too.
Hi, I have used GEFI for the last 7 or so years and they charge €335 to file income tax and VAT.
You can find them at http://www.gefieurefi.fr/
They're efficient and fine to deal with. However, while they communicate in English, they're French and it's not so easy. I don't really have a clue what they do. But my circumstances are straightfoward so it can't be that difficult. But the form is incomprehensible...
I'd be interested in an online tool especially, if it was structured so that there was a phone support option.
cheers,
Sinead
An update on the tool development. It is possible that it will be ready before the final tax return submission date (start of May), but I cannot say for definite. It has proved more complicated to develop than I had initially estimated and particularly because it will be a "one-stop-shop" i.e. it will generate the 2031, all the 2033 forms, the 2042, the 2042-C-PRO and if people are still paying VAT, the 3517-S and the 3562 (if they are entitled to a VAT rebate). It will also calculate the 2065 for people who have setup a french company.
All these form names may seem a bit daunting but the attraction of it is you will enter data into a simple user interface which will generate these forms depending on your entered criteria, so you will not need to understand any of them. In any case, it will be available soon, and if yet again you have had to use an accountant, then at least you will be able to test the tool by using the copy of the return the accountant gives to you.
But as I have said more than once before, it cannot be made live until it is perfect.
Seamus
Good luck with that Seamus. There are many French 'professionals' making lots of money out of leaseback. The fees accountants charge for doing basic accounts is a ripoff and this tool (when it goes live) will save some expense for the beleagured leaseback owner.
Tax return is now live! If anyone is interested... There is a "Test it" option on it, so I would be really keen to get some feedback on what people think. Note there will be a proper feedback option added in the next couple of weeks.
Seamus
Great!
I plan to try it out when I get a chance.
(I also have already paid GEFI for my returns for 2016.)