PLEASE WRITE NOW TO PRIMETIME , RTE. 7/6/2016

Hi Carol,

Would it not be better to write to Prime Time, Joe Duffy, whatever after we have had a meeting  and created a dossier revealing the full extent of the scam and its implications for owners.

I have contacted a few owners on the Forum directly in case they have given up following the site. I intend to contact more people over the weekend.

One man called Joe contacted me and his story is terrible, after taking out a mortgage on his property, he only received one payment; on hearing that one owner successfully sued his management co, he tried and lost his case, he has spent years trying to sort out the mess.

We see from Sinead,s post a case taken up by Cathy Sinnott MEP which failed. I think one person, or two or three is not enough; I believe we need to work as a large group with a well thought out dossier cataloging how we were misled when buying the properties, the poor performance of these companies, how our properties are becoming neglected and worthless due to this. How even after our 9 years are up, there is no escape; and the stress and consequences for owners.

I think in view of Catherine W's posted court case, it might be better to check first if there is in fact due to this case, a possibility that some of our contracts are not in fact commercial leases.

Patricia

Hi Carol,

September is ok with me, let me know the details when you do.

regards,

Patricia

Cathw

Can you pm me please.  

Rose

The journalist Diarmaid Condon (previously The Businesss Post and also contributer to The Examiner newspaper) is writing an article for The Irish Times on the topic of frecnh leaseback. I understand it will   be more realistic than that of a previous Irish Times journalist and he actively  wishes to hear peoples'experiences, difficulities and on going concerns. Any one looking for further information can do so at his website and I understand he has a contact link and profile there.

is anyone interested in  making contact  this does seem like a good opportunity to bring this leaseback issue  to a wider forum 

info@diarmaidcondon.com

Great - I'm writing to him now

thanks Teresa

Hi all,

I've emailed two Irish journalists Ailish O' Hora and Louise Kelly at independent newspapers, I hope I get a response. I have also tweeted to  a French journalist with Liberation, Estelle Pattee, to investigate the leaseback scandal and I've emailed primetime. I hope that someone decides to run with the story.

Patricia

Can you please post contact detailsfor the French journalist and Prime Time?

CathW

Hi CathW,

The email for Primetime is primetime@rte.ie, the French Journalist I tried to message by twitter is @ EstellePattee.

I have got no response from anything so far.

I have found out Sean O Rourke's contact email and will contact him on Monday. His email is todaysor@rte.ie

I am beginning to feel that there is a conspiracy of silence on this issue for some reason.

Patricia

I am uncertain as to the purpose of  this campaign.

I believe that most of you bought on the same basis as I did. If I am wrong please correct me.

Consider;-

When we buy a property in UK or Ireland we usually use an expert to advise us -to check the contracts, deeds etc. Basically to act on our behalf.

We don't just rely on the seller's word.

But when I bought my French apt  I didn't go  to an independent knowledgable French expert to explain the pros and cons of the specific contract or of the leaseback scheme. Amazingly stupid of me when my French is so poor. 

I didn't check to see whether the so-called guaranteed rent was actually guaranteed by the French govnt which I understand many of you were led to believe

I didn't read or know about the French law regarding commercial contracts-(especially the part where ,when a lease ends, the tenant can automatically renew or else claim compensation.)

I didn't properly research the sales prices or rental returns of surrounding properties.

Basically I was gullible and believed the sales person and pretty leaflets and stuff on the internet -none written by anyone representing me. And none written by the French govnt.

As I write this I can't believe how stupid I was. Frankly, if a reporter from TV or the press were to question me I'd be ashamed to confess how careless I was.

Why blame the French govnt ? Did anyone see anything from the French authorities that it would cover the losses in the event of failure to pay by the tenants?    

 We bought -blindly - a property in France from independent  private French companies and we signed the leasing contract with independent private French companies.( often one and the same company). 

We are to blame.

Nick

 Interesting  post & points. I'm certainly not blaming or suing the French Government. I'm suing the promoters/banks/developers/Notaire etc for deliberate fraudulent/mis-selling. A totally different approach.

Of course the complete absence of regulation here is also an issue and may well have political repercussions.

 Nothing about this issue is simple. Perhaps there was an element of bad investing by some people. All I can say from my part is the more that I delve into my case, the more certain I am that this development  was designed to fail once it's investment had been funded. 

Tine will tell if we get legal redress but certainly the whole leaseback debacle has exposed huge failures in the French regulatory system and its not just distressed Irish/British investors who are saying this.

Regards

What is the actual purpose of any campaign ?

Is it to shame the French authorities ? Is it to warn other prospective buyers not to be as gullible as we were?  This is what the O.P, in this thread suggests.

But reading other posts  not only on this thread but other threads over the years I get the impression that many owners want some sort of financial redress/compensation - or at the very least punishment for those responsible.

In order for there to be any financial "success"  there must be specific targets that existed ca.ten years ago and still exist today.  It must be legally proved that those entities deliberately lied and/or defrauded owners . Even if this can be proved and there is a chance of financial redress only the  actual owners in that specific development can claim

A general campaign - letters to this-and-that authority,media outlet etc - serves no purpose other as a warning to other buyers. Anything more is unachievable.

Of course, this campaign will also have the effect of making our investments even more unsellable than they are at present.

Nick, you make very valid points but you are missing one crucial issue. French leaseback is a scam. Unfortunately for us it is a scam that is being facilitated by the French and overseen by Notaires and banks who have a duty to engage in proper due diligence. Because the sequence of events can be predicted and replicated it is a scam. Our Notaire had the gall to write 'good location' on a note as part of our sale. He would have lived up to his responsibilities better had he properly looked through the deeds and other documentation pertaining to the residence that proved to be a legal nightmare (it was an old residence with a complex ownership structure pertaining to common areas). Do you exepct people to be silent victims of a scam? I certainly don't. If nothing else this will serve to help some people avoid this scam and avoid these French crooks (banks, notaires, solicitors, developers etc).

I suspect that many of the owners here are like me Irish citizens - so for thre non-Irish here plrease forgive the following ....

Between 2004 -2007 irish banks through fortunes at  often quite unsophisticated  buyers of grossly over-priced properties.

Banks gave enormous multiples of the buyers incomes. indeed  banks offered 100% of the loan required.

The govnt, the banks, the auctioneers, the solicitors all encouraged  buyers, often young naive couples to buy grotesque amounts to buy grossly inflated properties in ireland ,including shoe-boxed size apartments in Dublin.  Did any of these experts advise people who clearly couldn't -by any normal criteria - afford to pay ,say €350.000 for one bedroom apartments in Smithfield or similar (Which are still only worth 200k).

I think that the word scam applies much more to our own authorities,banks, lawyers,and sellers of proeprties than to the French leaseback- with far more dire consequences.

Ans there has not been a case ,as far as I know, of someone in France suing abank or lawyer for their part in this terrible business.Tens of thousands of young Irish families are still being squeezed for the usurious loans of crap properties -or else being evicted.

I reckon it would cause some mirth amongst the French to hear about a group of Irish buyers accussing the French lawyers, banks, sellers etc of perpetrating a scam+

A scam suggest a  deliberate fraud. You may believe there were instances of such frauds but you have to prove it.

Incidentally,  a Franch notary is not there to give his personal opinion of the worthiness  of the purchase. If the contract follows the  French rules and regulaions -and is in accordnace with the French civil code,especially as applied to commercial premises contracts, then the notrarty has done his job.

A banker had done his job if he  has lent the money as per your request. The banker ,if he';s your own personal bankers, may lend some private advice -but we see in Ireland how this rarely happened in the 2000s

The idea of accussing and chasing banks and lawyers goes beyond silly. You may have limited success if you obtain literature from a  company stating the word "guaranteed returns"when you bought your property. But this does company still exist ? And would they not argue  that they meant ,of course, that the guarantee exited as long as the mngt ompont was in buiness.

I think you'r wasting your time - and should be careful of things that you say because not all schemes are,scams.  I';m in my tenth year at Res du Parc,nr Disney, receiving a rent which is about ,after all costs, tax foncieres, 4%  p.a. clear. Not great but better than any bank. Sadly it went down to 3.5% from this year but ,in fairness the company fully made for refurbishment of the our apartmenst  which is unusual at lease end.

My returns are not great but they keep coming. But the the sales price has collapsed mainly due to the poor publicity of french leaseback..

Rather than this campaign would it not be better to change the properties into normal apartments which can be let on a long term basis to normal French lomg term tenant at a much higher rent. have you checked the pruce of normal apts in your area -probably worth more than unsellable leaseback properties. It could be a useful discussion between owners and poor paying mngt-tenant-companies.

Nick,

It can be called a scam because the same pattern is being replicated across France again and again. You get a property with guaranteed rent and some time lateryou get a letter stating that the rent needs to be decreased by 50%. If it is not a scam why is it always the magic 50%?  Despite the fact that the same pattern keeps happening the French are doing nothing about it. I will agree with you about changing apartments back into normal properties but it is the French authorities who prevent you from changing the status of a building from Residence de Tourisme to standard freehold. By not allowing this status top change they facilitating the continuation of this scam. We have been through all of this and were lucky to sell our apartment for its current freehold value. You can delude yourself if you like that you weren't duped by a scam but people who live with the stress of this on a daily basis know better.

@Nick

I agree that the negative publicity on French leaseback properties may impact on value of those which are functioning relatively well.

However, many do not function for the owner. You are in a very fortunate position to receive 4% after costs are deducted and yes this represents a good return. But this is not typical, at lease not typical of any Irish owners on the forum. (Excluding the cost of the capital, ie. without any mortgage repayment, I net less than 1% and a whole pile of aggravation..).

In my own resort I believe that many do not want any negative publicity as they wish to retain the option of selling, which is in effect passing on a rubbish product to someone who hasn't a clue. I can understand that but I think the boat has sailed anyhow, I don't think any on my resort are selling, or have sold, for anything over 40% of cost.

You compare to the property bubble in Ireland and to some extent this is fair, but it is not the same. The difference is that these were sold as leasebacks, with the lease terms in the pre-sales contract and deed of sale. We are locked in. I have no access to my property. But I have all the bills. In fact I received a bill for water today that was left unpaid when the first operator went into receivership. A French court judged that the owners (mainly Irish and English) should pay this rather than pursue the French operator/developer or take the hit themselves. I've paid for the tap, but wouldn't be able to take a drink from it!

So, it's not the same as buying an over-priced property in Ireland. I have accepted that the value of the property has crashed. But the difference is that they were only sold at this price because of a lease with 'guaranteed' rent built in. I believe this guarantee was fraudulent. The properties were leaseback so in undeveloped tourist areas and thus the developer knew this could never have been guaranteed. And then there are also the on-going costs associated with it.

In short, it is not what it said on the tin.

We were misled.

On purpose.

And there is EU consumer law to protect consumers from charlatans. 

What's your aim here Nick? Ask everybody to shut up about being scammed so you can sell your property on to another unsuspecting person who will have to live with the scam thereafter?

Yes, Sinead to a certain extent that is my aim  except...

-the buyer will have access to all documents,contracts,owners meeting reports over the years - a massive file of emails and letetrs PLUS will be able to see the property in its present (quite good condition). A whole mass of information that  will be far more reliable than a salesman bullshit chat/leaflet than most of us stupidly relied on.

- the buyer will not be faced with ca. 20 years of  be liable forVAT refund but only ten years ,decreasing annually.

- Instead of paying nearly €130.000  I'd happily sell it for half that price. So, on 65k he'd get at the present low rent  of ca. 5k p.a. -- and I wouldn't "guarantee" it.

Obviously lots of bad publicity on the French leaseback scheme won't help me sell.  

Sorry I'm not as noble as you.

Did prime time ever reply 

FYI

we are planning to talk to an RTE journalist this week - this is on the back of our engagement with Brian Hayes (MEP) and the petition.

See - https://www.change.org/p/eu-french-government-justice-for-hood-winked-ow...

Great work Sinead,

I got in touch with the Conor Pope show, they got in touch with me,but they must have decided  not to go with it.

If  you get it on Primetime, it could really make a difference. If there were any justice the French would be forced to scrap this scheme.

Patricia